Oil Analyzers: 12,100 miles

[Bruce Bartlow]

I was experimenting with Amsoil's 0w-30 back in 1997, guaranteed to hold up for 35,000 miles under normal sevice conditions. Being new to extended oil drains and a major skeptic, I lost my nerve at 12,000. This particular car went on to log 270,000 miles before being knocked off the freeway and totaled. Everybody walked away unharmed except the car, which was towed in pieces to its final resting place. Here are the UOA results.

http://screencast.com/t/yaB2dY19bp8S

 

[Bruce Bartlow]

Here are some of my classroom notes on "How to Interpret your Oil Analysis Results", including basic definitions on the last page.

The spectrographic parameters listed here are incredibly broad -- and what's considered "Normal" is generally too high for smooth running Honda engines. For example, most of us who test Hondas rarely see iron ppm over 25 unless the engine is new... while the following chart considers anything up to "100" ppm as normal. That's why it's good to work with Blackstone Labs, as they have a good history of what's typical for each manufacturer and/or engine class.

 

[webby]

so in their comments... were they suggesting you to run that oil longer (if you hadn't drained it)?

 

[Bruce Bartlow]

so in their comments... were they suggesting you to run that oil longer (if you hadn't drained it)?

______________
Yes, absolutely. There was tons of TBN remaining (7.4) and the oxidation was acceptable around 54%, especially given the stout DI package. (DI package = http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/whats-in-your-motor-oil/)

Keep in mind the lubricant used was Amsoil's Group V 0w-30 built from an expensive combination of esters and rated for up to 35,000 miles, or 17,500 miles under severe conditions. Most well built synthetics are 'only' (no slam intended) Group IV polyalphaolephins, or "PAO" for short. But there's nothing wrong with a good PAO. On the contrary: A few Amsoil PAO's are still rated for 25,000 miles or one year, and considerably more if bypass filtration is used, naturally. Interestingly, Mobil 1 -- back in the day when it had a 25,000 mile warranty, was also a Group IV PAO. Now, however, Mobil 1 is only an API Group III hydrocrack... a definite step down. That doesn't make it a bad oil by any means.... it's just not designed for those super-extended drain intervals like before. That said, I've had no problem using M1 for 7,500 miles, although it is trashed by that point.

It's important to note that deterioration of TBN is not linear. So I prefer to play it safe by changing oil when an oil's TBN approaches 4, or when other warning signs appear. Your preferences will vary, of course... and that's perfectly okay.

Here's a representative slide showing the relative difference between a PAO and a polyol ester in one of ExxonMobil's industrial lubricant presentations in terms of reducing deposit formation. Even from one slide you'll see PAO's are great oils... but those made with esters are just a little better.
http://screencast.com/t/WMMsWZoc

For reference, a link to the full article is here:
http://utsrus.com/documents/seminary_doklady/exxon_mobil_pao.pdf

 

[webby]

I recall reading threads on BITOG when Mobil synthetic switched to group III instead of group IV. There were a lot of angry people because they weren't altering their price structure either.

 

[Bruce Bartlow]

I recall reading threads on BITOG when Mobil synthetic switched to group III instead of group IV. There were a lot of angry people because they weren't altering their price structure either.

______________________
Mobil 1 was at Costco today $10.00 off regular price (a common sale) or $26.50 for a 6-pack -- little more than $4.00/qt. At that price it's fine... but it doesn't compete well at $6.00/qt.

 

[webby]

it almost seems like every couple of weeks a local autozone/advanced auto runs the 5.25qt jug of mobil full synthetic with a mobil filter for like ~$27-$30.

 

[Dar-Dar]

And it comes with free mobil 1 oil filter which costs $13-$14.

 

[Bruce Bartlow]

And it comes with free mobil 1 oil filter which costs $13-$14.

_____________
Sweet deal! Those are nice filters.

 

[Bruce Bartlow]

it almost seems like every couple of weeks a local autozone/advanced auto runs the 5.25qt jug of mobil full synthetic with a mobil filter for like ~$27-$30.

________________
i should add, a Group III oil like Mobile 1 isn't really a synthetic. Many say it's a synthetic 'in name only' because it's hydrocracked and more like regular oil than a Group IV PAO which has much better characteristics. That said, regular oils -- all of them -- have been required to meet higher and higher standards over the years, and that's why it's not such a big deal to go 5,000 miles anymore... which 10 years ago made people nervous.

 

[Bruce Bartlow]

______________
Yes, absolutely. There was tons of TBN remaining (7.4) and the oxidation was acceptable around 54%, especially given the stout DI package. (DI package = http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/whats-in-your-motor-oil/)

Keep in mind the lubricant used was Amsoil's Group V 0w-30 built from an expensive combination of esters and rated for up to 35,000 miles, or 17,500 miles under severe conditions. Most well built synthetics are 'only' (no slam intended) Group IV polyalphaolephins, or "PAO" for short. But there's nothing wrong with a good PAO. On the contrary: A few Amsoil PAO's are still rated for 25,000 miles or one year, and considerably more if bypass filtration is used, naturally. Interestingly, Mobil 1 -- back in the day when it had a 25,000 mile warranty, was also a Group IV PAO. Now, however, Mobil 1 is only an API Group III hydrocrack... a definite step down. That doesn't make it a bad oil by any means.... it's just not designed for those super-extended drain intervals like before. That said, I've had no problem using M1 for 7,500 miles, although it is trashed by that point.

It's important to note that deterioration of TBN is not linear. So I prefer to play it safe by changing oil when an oil's TBN approaches 4, or when other warning signs appear. Your preferences will vary, of course... and that's perfectly okay.

Here's a representative slide showing the relative difference between a PAO and a polyol ester in one of ExxonMobil's industrial lubricant presentations in terms of reducing deposit formation. Even from one slide you'll see PAO's are great oils... but those made with esters are just a little better.
http://screencast.com/t/WMMsWZoc

For reference, a link to the full article is here:
http://utsrus.com/documents/seminary_doklady/exxon_mobil_pao.pdf

_______________________________________
This is a partial repost from a thread on MTF:

"About Engine Oil. To make sure it's safe going beyond 3,000 - 7,000 miles under your driving conditions (what we call "extended drain intervals") you'll want to know the lubricant's total base number ("TBN") -- the oil's remaining ability to neutralize acids. Very very important number. It's an extra $10.00 to get TBN tested at Blackstone. So it's $25.00 (basic Blackstone test) + $10.00 for Blackstone TBN = $35.00, although discounts are available for 6-packs.​

"OR you can consider another company, Oil Analyzers Inc. Oil Analyzers includes the TBN test at no extra charge, and even includes other useful tests like Oxidation and Nitration at no additional charge. Last i looked the whole enchilada at Oil Analyzers was $22.95 instead of Blackstone's $35.

"Worthwhile tidbit: An oil begins to darken with as little as 2% oxidation. But there's a problem with that ----- we get faked out. The oil looks dirty so we think it is dirty. Nothing could be farther from the truth. Unless there are other reasons to change your oil (spectrograph readings, TBN, water, glycol) your oil is still clean and doing its job until it has reached 50% oxidation. In other words, the oil can appear dirty even when there's nothing wrong with it."​

 

[webby]

Bruce Bartlow every seen this? http://www.lubricheck.com

http://www.autoblog.com/2013/03/17/nearly-two-years-later-we-get-our-hands-on-lubrichecks-blood/

 

[Bruce Bartlow]

Bruce Bartlow every seen this? http://www.lubricheck.com

http://www.autoblog.com/2013/03/17/nearly-two-years-later-we-get-our-hands-on-lubrichecks-blood/

__________
Hadn't heard of it, no.

In trying to piece together the vague documentation, it sounds like a basic Total Acid Number -- the inverse of the more useful and expensive Total Base Number (TBN) test. To quote the website: "The Lubricheck acts much like these on-board sensors [already in many cars] and will give you real-time analysis of what your oil is really like, and when your oil should be changed." Which is done by comparing your results with those of 10 pre-loaded samples from the Lubricheck factory. Overall, I like the idea, as far as it goes. Would I buy one? Perhaps.... but probably not without knowing more. Thanks for the tip!

 

[Bruce Bartlow]

Bruce Bartlow every seen this? http://www.lubricheck.com

http://www.autoblog.com/2013/03/17/nearly-two-years-later-we-get-our-hands-on-lubrichecks-blood/

_____________________
Still trying to understand this Lubricheck gizmo. In addition to my comments from last night, three points in their general FAQ stick out:

1.) "But beyond these cost savings, the Lubricheck will detect the presence of antifreeze, metal particles and other contaminants in the oil. This can serve as an early warning of developing problems, long before more serious engine damage occurs."
Would love to know how they measure particulate contamination without the normal spectrograph. They are suspiciously short on details and long on marketing.



2.) ARE there other factors to oil health that I should know about?
Yes. Contaminants like soot, carbon deposits, moisture build up, coolant, dirt and 'wear metal' particulates (or ions) and fuel are suspended in the oil, and can contribute to a loss of oil quality and engine life. With the exception of fuel, these contamiants will negatively influence the Lubricheck rating of your oil. The presence of fuel in the oil will falsely show a higher quality of your oil. This is one of the reasons we encourage regular testing and recording of your results on our Lubritrack smart phone APP, or on our Luritrack online service. (Lubritrack will warn you when it finds unexpectedly posiitve or negative oil test results). If you find the Lubricheck shows your oil quality is improving, or your oil does not decrease in quality after significant milage, (and you have not replaced the oil filter) your engine may be leaking fuel into the oil pan.


Naturally a failure to detect contamination from fuel is a big drawback. The oil would appear 'just fine' ... just before your engine is about to blow.



3.)The Lubricheck will factor in all of these variables, such as:

• Climate
• Engine condition
• Oil type and quality from manufacturer
• Driving habits
• Traffic conditions
• Topography
• Engine size and type (water cooled vs air cooled, 4, 6 or 8 cylinder, etc.)
• Engine operating temperature
• Engine design, materials and manufacturing tolerances
• Oil capacity of engine (4 quarts will wear out quicker that 8 quarts)

It would appear that the user answers a survey, the results of which are entered into a simple Lubricheck program or algo. The used oil's final score of 1 - 10 are a result of comparing this sample oil against the 10 (?) fresh oil samples in the Lubricheck memory.

________________________________________

 

[webby]

yeah, I just happened to see that article. Maybe shoot them an email with specific questions to see what their response is? You have obviously done a lot of research on the topic. Might be interesting.
http://www.lubricheck.com/home/contact
info@lubricheck.com